How do you pronounce any word

Most people, in most countries (especially in mine), do not make any attempt whatsoever to mimic the native pronunciation of foreign words.

Same in Russia.

I think this is disrespectful and ignorant.

Disrespectful and ignorant — yes. But if I, for example, would pronounce all the English words that have come into Russian over the last two decades, I simply won’t be understood by most my compatriots! Or they would think I’m show-offing, and that’s no good again.
Besides, the English, French, Spanish pronunciations have their own peculiarities. People spend years at colleges and universities to learn to speak in these languages properly, and it’s just impossible to demand from a person who’s never done any French (like me! ) to pronounce the name ‘Mulin Rouge’ according to the rules of French.

I think you mean yacht —> yot.

Yeah, I meant that. Sorry, I don’t have a yacht, I’m not used.

… it’s just impossible to demand from a person who’s never done any French (like me!) to pronounce the name ‘Mulin Rouge’ according to the rules of French.

You are correct that in reality, people who pronounce foreign words correctly are not understood or seen as pompous. You are also correct that in reality, one must accept the local mispronunciation. Another alternative is to misspell the word to account for local phonetics, in order to achieve the correct pronunciation.

For example, you either put up with Americans saying «mow-lynn rooj», or you spell it Mowlawn Ruge — so that Joe Sixpack will approximate a French pronunciation.

However, I am not content with the reality of the situation. I dream of, and work towards, a better world. In my Utopia, people will have a desire to learn about the cultures where foreign words come from, and they will try their best to pronounce the words as they are pronounced in the native language — out of respect, an appreciation for diversity and a love of learning.

However, I am not content with the reality of the situation. I dream of, and work towards, a better world. In my Utopia, people will have a desire to learn about the cultures where foreign words come from, and they will try their best to pronounce the words as they are pronounced in the native language — out of respect, an appreciation for diversity and a love of learning.

I like your dream. It’s beautiful!
Let’s hope we’ll see the world changing for better!

Good point, KN.

… but I try to stick to one language and one accent per conversation.

Unless you’re code-switching. Right?

I think it depends on whether the word can look like a local one — I mean, if the combination of letters is common in the target language or not. «Internet» for instance, could very well be a French word, we have the word «interne» (intern) and the prefix «inter», we have the word «net» (neat, clean-looking), so logically we pronounce it as we would pronounce the different syllables of the word in French.

Other words are so different from any usual combination, that we have to pronounce it like it is in the original language — or at least try to. «Week-end» for example, which has become a common term in French. Of course, native speakers might think that we don’t pronounce it the right way… and I must say I’m surprised, badgrammar: except for the R that is obviously said the French way, what do we get wrong in «t-shirt»? We certainly don’t say «téchirte»!! (rather «ticheurte»)
As for «punch», we don’t pronounce it the same way depending on the meaning: it will be «ponche» for the drink indeed, but «peun’che» if we mean kick/power.

You are correct that in reality, people who pronounce foreign words correctly are not understood or seen as pompous. You are also correct that in reality, one must accept the local mispronunciation. Another alternative is to misspell the word to account for local phonetics, in order to achieve the correct pronunciation.

This happens in French indeed: you can read in informal written communications «ouikènde» which would be the Frenchified form of «week-end». Also «ouèbe» for «web». But the (pseudo-)English pronounciation had already made it into the language.

Most people, in most countries (especially in mine), do not make any attempt whatsoever to mimic the native pronunciation of foreign words. I think this is disrespectful and ignorant.

Why? I think it’s just sensible.

I don’t think you pronounce ‘cigarette’ or ‘commence’ with a French accent? You’ll probably say that’s due to the fact that they have been long incorporated in the English vocabulary. But how could foreign words be absorbed by any language if everyone thought like you? And what about synthetical languages that borrow from analytical ones (i.e. Russian from English)? You can’t build a sentence in Russian without declining nouns and conjugating verbs and that means Russian inflexions. Am I supposed to pronounce the root with a foreign accent and the ending with a native accent? It’d be a great mess!

and I must say I’m surprised, badgrammar: except for the R that is obviously said the French way, what do we get wrong in «t-shirt»? We certainly don’t say «téchirte»!! (rather «ticheurte»)
As for «punch», we don’t pronounce it the same way depending on the meaning: it will be «ponche» for the drink indeed, but «peun’che» if we mean kick/power.

Right on for «punch», I think that I will just pronounce it as a I would in ENglish from now on, it goes with the whole American in Paris package. As for t-shirt, the problem, I think, comes from the «r» sound. If I go for the American r sound, it really sounds like I am dropping a very foreign word into my sentence (when it such a commonly used word in French). If I use the French «r», it comes out like «t-chierte or «t-chirut» or something.

I mean we’ve all seen the parodies of people speaking very neutral English and then dropping in foreign words with a native accent in that language. It looks silly. That said, folks must make some effort to pronounce things correctly, or you’d hear things like «I’ll have a tekwilla» or «I’ve got a rondezz-vousse» or «Would you like creepes or kweeche»?

Hi,

Most people, in most countries (especially in mine), do not make any attempt whatsoever to mimic the native pronunciation of foreign words. I think this is disrespectful and ignorant.

I see that you’re English… i’d love to hear you say ‘pronunciation’, ‘information’, ‘ignorant’.
A few questions:
1. What’s disrespectful about pronouncing those words the English way, and not the French way (when speaking English). Do you produce the tones when saying Beijing (in English) and is that a matter of disrespect?
2. When do ‘foreign words’ cease to be ‘foreign’?

Groetjes,

Frank

I don’t think you pronounce ‘cigarette’ or ‘commence’ with a French accent? You’ll probably say that’s due to the fact that they have been long incorporated in the English vocabulary.

Yes, because the convention has always been to change the pronunciation to match English phonetics. Just because we’ve always done it that way doesn’t make it right.

But how could foreign words be absorbed by any language if everyone thought like you? And what about synthetical languages that borrow from analytical ones (i.e. Russian from English)?

They would be absorbed exactly as they are absorbed now. The very same process. Only they would sound different than they do now, and we wouldn’t be any the wiser.

I’m not saying that we need to adopt all of the pronunciation and grammar rules of the other language. I’m also not trying to be «anal»about it. In most cases, it would take very little effort to pronounce the word in a more-authentic way.

I see that you’re English… i’d love to hear you say ‘pronunciation’, ‘information’, ‘ignorant’.
A few questions:
1. What’s disrespectful about pronouncing those words the English way, and not the French way (when speaking English). Do you produce the tones when saying Beijing (in English) and is that a matter of disrespect?
2. When do ‘foreign words’ cease to be ‘foreign’?

I’m American, not English. I’m not sure what my pronunciation of those words has to do with this discussion.

I don’t say Beijing correctly, nor do I say the name of your city correctly, because the custom in English is to change the pronunciation. I have learned to say Peking and Antwerp just like other Americans.

If I were to pronounce Beijing and other foreign words in a way that was more like the pronunciation of that region, I would be saying, «Hey… I value you enough to say this word in the ‘correct’ way.»

Same thing if you say my name. Do you get irritated when people who are native speakers of your language mispronounce your name? Why? It shows a lack of respect for you.

Hi,

I’m American, not English. I’m not sure what my pronunciation of those words has to do with this discussion.

We’re talking about foreign words, no? Those words are of French descent. I coupled this to a second question: when do foreign words cease to be ‘foreign’?

I don’t say Beijing correctly, nor do I say the name of your city correctly, because the custom in English is to change the pronunciation. I have learned to say Peking and Antwerp just like other Americans.
If I were to pronounce Beijing and other foreign words in a way that was more like the pronunciation of that region, I would be saying, «Hey… I value you enough to say this word in the ‘correct’ way.»

Nihil obstat, go ahead. But then, be consequent and pronounce ‘information’, ‘discussion’ etc. the French way.
On the other hand, if you do that, I doubt whether other speakers of English will understand you.
But what has this to do with disrespect? Why do you think that the pronunciation of a particular (foreign) word is to be connected with (dis)respect?

Same thing if you say my name. Do you get irritated when people who are native speakers of your language mispronounce your name? Why? It shows a lack of respect for you.

Same question, why would it be a sign of disrespect?

Groetjes,

Frank

I also feel it depends on the company. If I am with Indians, I will say Delhi and Calcutta correctly. If I am with American friends, I certainly will not say Dilli and Kolkatta…it would be strange.

Cuando hablamos en Espanol, no se dice London sino Londres. But that is my opinion on cities.

How do you pronounce foreign words when you use it while you are talking in your native language? Do you modify it according to the phonetics of your language or do you pronounce it correctly according to how the native speakers of the language where it originated do it?

When I speak English, I use English sounds. So foreign words are pronounced using the closest English sounds. I’m not into verbal gymnastics.

When I speak French, I say Paris in the French way, and I say Australia in the French way, and I even pronounce my home town in the French way.

If I had a name like Thistlethwaite, I would not consider it insulting if a French person couldn’t pronounce it properly.

Maybe I should add that we have a habit to pronounce ordinary Finnish words according to English pronunciation rules. Just for the fun of it.

I’ve noticed that that’s what we used to do when we just started to learn Finnush: we pronounced the words according to the rules of the English pronunciation, and we didn’t do it on purpose.

Do you get irritated when people who are native speakers of your language mispronounce your name? Why? It shows a lack of respect for you.

My name is really hard to mispronounce. What can get me irritated is when a complete stranger or a person whom I dislike tries to call me Anya or even Anechka. How dare they?
When people mispronounce my surname (it happens), it doesn’t get me irritated. I’m not that proud of my present surname. I would correct them, but very politely, and would take no offence at all.

We’re talking about foreign words, no? Those words are of French descent. I coupled this to a second question: when do foreign words cease to be ‘foreign’?

I see your point (now) about «information», etc. My response is that if the first English-speakers to use the French word «information» had begun pronouncing it to approximate French pronunciation from the beginning, then we would all say in-fo-ma-sio’ (or however it’s pronounced in French), nobody would know the difference, and you and I would be discussing the price of tea in China. Your second question is such a good one that it deserves it’s own thread.

Lest you all think I’m an anal-retentive pedant who has a psychological complex about people mispronouncing his name, I’ll shut up now. I’m not expressing a passion for proscribing pronunciation rules that others consider arcane; I simply have a passion for the acceptance and celebration of cultural differences. For me, this is not an issue of pronunciation — it’s about interest in, respect for and celebration of other cultures and languages.

or «holla-pino peppers are great» (ugh) I would prefer to say «jalapeño».

I hate words that are half-anglicized, like fajita and creme brulee. I either pronounce them fully anglicized as fa-GEE-ta (GEE like the letter G) and cream broo-lee, or else I pronounce them as though they were Spanish and French respectively.

I think you mean «canadicized» instead of «anglicized». Everywhere that I have been in the US, fajita is pronounced /fa-HEE-tah/ and jalapeño is /hahl-ah-PEN-yo/. It’s not perfect Mexican Spanish pronunciation, but it’s close enough for the American pronunciation to resemble the Spanish.

See? How hard is that?

Context is everything …

• Wine is a classic example (cabernet sauvignon, merlot,

1) Does one pronounce them as close to the French pronunciation as possible?
2) Does one pronounce them as anglicised French?
3) or cab-er-net (rhymes with get), mer-lot (rhymes with got) — and yes, this is heard in Australia (and not always as a joke!)

• On the other hand, unless I was in a French-speaking country , I would be anglicising «croissant». If I were to pronounce it the French way in Australia, I would be considered pompous (to put it mildly)

• Another example which comes to mind is «Moscow». For years I have heard people arguing whether it should be pronounced Moss-coe (rhymes with toe) or Moss-cow (rhymes with cow) which I consider to be a completely useless argument since Russians would pronounce it neither way (it would be pronounced similar to moskva)

actually people say «fa-hee-ta» in canada too. It’s just that I feel obligated to either say it with the spanish «x» sound, or leave it completely anglicized as «fageeta», rather than the imitation: «fa-hee-ta».

To say «fageetah» in my neck of the woods wood be as strange as saying» ja-la-peen-oh pepper» or bottle of «tek-will-a». It would be assumed either that 1) It’ a joke, or 2) You’re Canadian

Hi,

Let’s go all the way! A job half done is a job not done.

تهران —
The président of جمهوری اسلامی ايران, Mr. محمود احمدی نژاد claims that he never has drunk водка. Nevertheless he made yet another bad impréssion at the مسجد last Friday where he threatened מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל once again.
Next week, he will be on a tour to भारत गणराज्य where he will meet représentatives of the parliament and to 中國 (中国), where he will discuss the political status of 臺灣 (台湾).

I doubt(e) if this is going to improve the communication.
And adapting your ways of communication to other people is also a matter of respect, n’est-ce pas?

Groetjes,

Frank

تهران —
The président of جمهوری اسلامی ايران, Mr. محمود احمدی نژاد claims that he never has drunk водка. Nevertheless he made yet another bad impréssion at the مسجد last Friday where he threatened מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל once again.
Next week, he will be on a tour to भारत गणराज्य where he will meet représentatives of the parliament and 中國 (中国), where he will discuss the political status of 臺灣 (台湾).

And a job very well done it was, too! Frank, you just provided the answer to the question, «What will be the next ‘universal’ language?»

Now, the next question is, What are you going to call your language?

Hi,

Let’s go all the way! A job half done is a job not done.

تهران —
The président of جمهوری اسلامی ايران, Mr. محمود احمدی نژاد claims that he never has drunk водка. Nevertheless he made yet another bad impréssion at the مسجد last Friday where he threatened מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל once again.
Next week, he will be on a tour to भारत गणराज्य where he will meet représentatives of the parliament and 中國 (中国), where he will discuss the political status of 臺灣 (台湾).

I doubt(e) if this is going to improve the communication.
And adapting your ways of communication to other people is also a matter of respect, n’est-ce pas?

Groetjes,

Frank

Oh dear! That’s marvellous! Can’t stop laughing.
By the way, it’s a pretty realistic model of the «next ‘universal’ language».

Right on for «punch», I think that I will just pronounce it as a I would in ENglish from now on, it goes with the whole American in Paris package. As for t-shirt, the problem, I think, comes from the «r» sound. If I go for the American r sound, it really sounds like I am dropping a very foreign word into my sentence (when it such a commonly used word in French). If I use the French «r», it comes out like «t-chierte or «t-chirut» or something.

Tiche (as in the verb «enticher»), heurte (as in the verb «heurter»). Now you can pronounce correctly the French word T-shirt!

The name of my company is a combination of two English words. Often I go to meetings outside and have to say it to receptionists in order to get a badge. If I say it with a French accent, they don’t get it. If I say it with an English accent, they don’t get it. It’s too long to be spelt out. So I usually say it half-way between English and French accent and put up with the incorrectly spelt badge. They never spell my first name right anyway so that’s not a big deal really.