На основании Вашего запроса эти примеры могут содержать грубую лексику.
На основании Вашего запроса эти примеры могут содержать разговорную лексику.
Russian nouns each have a gender — either feminine, masculine or neutral, indicated by spelling at the end of the word.
Русские существительные имеют полы — женственные, мужские или нейтральные, обозначенные орфографией в конце слова.
The second difference is the absence of the letter «l» at the end of the word.
Единственным отличием является отсутствие буквы «I» в конце названия.
Look for parts you know at the END of the word (suffixes).
Many of the AI’s errors were small, such as missing an «s» at the end of the word.
При этом многие ошибки можно были незначительными — например, программа пропускала «s» в конце слов.
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What do you think does it mean when you hear someone saying, “I like pig!” or “I like dog!”?
This can mean only one thing: this person likes the taste of pigs or dogs! That’s what happens when you miss the “S” at the end of a noun when it should be there. The sentence has a completely different meaning. But when you say,
“I love pigs.”
“I love dogs.”
this means you like these animals as pets and you enjoy having them or playing with them. These are also grammatically correct compared to the first two sentences. Today, we will learn when to use “S” at the end of your words to convey the proper meaning of your sentences.
When you say “I like chicken!” that tells me you love eating chicken meat! If you say, “I like chickens”, this means you love having them as pets. When you enjoy pet chickens, cats or horses, always put your “S” at the end.
It will help a lot to remember these simple rules when using “S”:
RULE 1: Always use “S” with countable nouns when it’s plural
Always use “S” with countable nouns when it’s plural. So let’s review. What are countable and uncountable nouns?
Countable nouns (or count nouns) are those that refer to something that can be counted. They have both plural and singular forms, examples girl/girls, apple/apples, cat/cats, house/houses, etc. In the singular form, the article A or AN comes before them.
Uncountable nouns are for the things that we cannot count with numbers. They are names for ideas, qualities, or physical objects that are too small or too big to be counted. Examples are liquid, powder, gases, etc. Uncountable nouns are used with a singular verb.
Related Article: When to Use the Article THE with Uncountable Nouns
Chad: WOW! So you have a lot of guests coming for Thanksgiving dinner. How many people do you expect?
Kim: We expect 53 person.
So, Kim’s answer is wrong because “person” is a countable noun, and since it’s more than one (plural), you put an S there: persons.
Cashier: This pie costs 17 dollars.
Tim: Don’t worry, I have 20 dollar.
Again, in this scenario, Tim is wrong. Dollar is a currency and can be counted. So better to put an S there as well: dollars.
RULE 2: If you only have one of something countable, you don’t need the S
If you only have one of something countable, you don’t need the S. So with singular countable nouns, there’s no need to add the S.
Example:
- I have one dollar.
- She has a car.
- They have a brown horse.
- My uncle owns one boat and two cabins.
Only ONE dollar, ONE car, ONE horse, and ONE boat. So there’s no need to add an S.
RULE 3: Use S with several, a lot of, and many
This time, learn how to use S with several, a lot of, and many.
Related Article: Quantifiers: How to Properly Use ‘Much’, ‘Many’, and ‘A Lot of’
Several, a lot, and many are adjectives that give more information about the noun that comes after them. They determine the amount of something. They mean more than one. So, when using these adjectives, you need the plural form of the noun, and so you must put the S at the end.
Wrong: There are several trophy on the shelf.
Correct: There are several trophies on the shelf.
Let’s break it down here:
are = plural verb
several = more than one
trophies = plural noun / more than one
Wrong: I have a lot of cat.
Correct: I have a lot of cats.
Wrong: This town has many hot spring.
Correct: This town has many hot springs.
Wrong: My city has many bridge.
Correct: My city has many bridges.
At this point, let me just mention that TOO MANY has an entirely different connotation. Although you can use TOO MANY to describe more than one countable noun, using this shows a negative meaning. This means you don’t like the noun or that something.
Examples:
- There are TOO many birds in the house.
- There are TOO many chili peppers in the pizza.
- There are TOO many boxes in the garage.
So remember that many, several, and a lot are used to express something positive.
RULE 4: Use S for singular verbs
Use S for singular verbs.
English grammar rule says that a singular verb always has an S.
Example:
- She EATS bananas.
- He RUNS very fast.
- The old man DRINKS two cups of tea every morning.
Now, there is one group of pronouns which can be confusing to use:
- no one
- nobody
- everyone
- everybody
- anyone
- anybody
- someone
- somebody
They all mean exactly the same: ONE person that has no specific name. Since each of these is singular pronoun, then your verb must have an S.
So for the pronouns listed above, they always go with singular verbs. For instance, you can say,
- Nobody likes a dirty bed.
- No one likes the smell of durian.
- Everyone in the house loves chocolates!
- Everybody in the class enjoys dancing.
Notice that likes, loves, and enjoys are all singular forms of the verb, so there’s an S at the end. Here is where the grammar rule for subject-verb agreement comes in:
When it’s a singular noun/pronoun, use singular verbs. Singular verbs ALWAYS have an S.
As a side note, another thing to remember: always use the singular helping verb HAS when using these pronouns. For example:
- no one has…
- nobody has…
- everyone has…
- everybody has…
- anyone has…
- anybody has…
- someone has…
- somebody has…
HAVE is reserved for plural usages. So just a quick review, helping verbs include:
Singular Plural
- am are
- is are
- was were
- has have
- had had
This is for an entirely different grammar topic. But for now, just remember that we always use HAS for singular pronouns. So example, you can say:
- No one has seen the bear hiding in the bushes.
- Someone has arrived at the door late at night.
- Everybody has an ID.
What are HELPING VERBS?
Helping verbs help a MAIN verb express an action. Most of the time, verbs can stand on their own, but sometimes they need help to express an action or a state.
Example:
The park has opened.
opened = main verb
has = helps “opened” to express the state
A helping verb is always JUST BEFORE the main verb. Other examples are:
- They are laughing. (are = helping Verb, laughing = main Verb)
- The seagull is flying. (is = helping V, flying = main V)
- Dean is driving. (is = helping V, driving = main V)
- Someone is laughing. (is = helping V, laughing = main V)
- Somebody is driving a blue car. (is =helping V, driving = main V)
Helping verb is easy to spot! We use them all the time!
So, remember to use your S when it should be there, and don’t add it when it shouldn’t be there. This way, you’ll avoid errors in your sentences.
Related Articles:
- When to Use “TO” Properly in English?
- What’s the Difference Between “With” and “By”?
- Confusing Words in English
- How to Use the Subjunctive Mood: Wish
- What’s the Difference Between TO and FOR in English?
- Beginner
- Grammar
- Helping verbs
- High Beginner
Author
I have a passion for the English language because it is such a powerful tool for creativity and personal development. I’ve been writing articles since I was in High School. I represented my school in English writing competitions in the city, regional, and national levels. When I was in college, I wrote a short story which was published in the University Literary Portfolio. In 2006, I worked as a call center agent in Cebu City. In 2007 up to 2008, I worked as an English accent trainer in a startup call center company. I have also been offering ESL lessons as a freelance tutor since February 2016.
Related Articles
Which Is Correct, “At the End” or “In the End”?
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LanguageTool
Did you know that the phrases “at the end” and “in the end” aren’t synonymous? We’ll review their distinctions below.
- At the end is commonly used as a prepositional phrase that refers to a specific time or location.
- In the end is a phrase that is synonymous to “in conclusion,” or “ultimately.”
- ○ His house is located at the end of the street.
- ○ In the end, I decided on the bouquet of tulips. .
At the end and in the end are common phrases. But do they mean the same thing? After all, the only difference between them are the prepositions.
Yes, there’s a difference. Below, we’ll tell you when you should use at the end and in the end.
When To Use “At The End”
At the end is most commonly used as a prepositional phrase that refers to a specific time or location. Keep in mind that when used this way, at the end is always followed by of.
At the end of the show, we got up and left.
In the example above, at the end helps indicate a specific time which was when the movie ended.
We were told that the bakery is at the end of the shopping plaza.
In this example, at the end specifies a location.
The prepositional phrase at the end is followed by of + a noun, even if it’s abstract.
I am at the end of my patience.
In the example above, at the end helps disclose that the person’s patience has come to an end.
Remember that you can use at the end correctly if you use it the same way you would at the beginning.
I was at the beginning of the line.
I was at the end of the line.
When To Use “In The End”
In the end is an idiomatic expression that can mean “ultimately,” “when everything is considered,” or “in conclusion.”
In the end, we decided on a destination wedding.
They tried their best and in the end, they made a big difference.
In the end, the experiment was inconclusive.
It’s important to note that the expression at the end of the day is an expression that is similar to meaning to in the end. Consider the following sentence:
At the end of the day, we did what was best for the team.
In the sentence above, at the end of the day may not be literally referring to the end of a day. Instead, it’s being used as an idiom that means “in the end” or “ultimately.”
In the end, we did what was best for the team.
“At The End” vs. “In The End”
Whether you’re an English language learner or a native speaker, the distinctions between at the end and in the end can be a little hard to follow. Just try to remember this:
- Use at the end when you’re referring to the end of something or want to indicate a specific time or place.
- Use in the end when you want to refer to the outcome of events or disclose a result.
Another foolproof way of using these expressions correctly is by making LanguageTool your writing assistant. This intelligent text editor can inform you when you’ve used an incorrect preposition and can also correct spelling mistakes.
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#2
Hi, Suze.
That rule is a vestige of what is known as prescriptive grammar. The last 4 decades have produced a more scientifically oriented grammar known as descriptive grammar.
1. What a curvy road we are driving on! OK
2. On what a curvy road we are driving! no
3. On the kitchen table, the man is sitting. no
4. The kitchen table, the man is sitting on. (What’s the man sitting on?)
5. He’s the one who I bought it from. OK
6. What a dirty room the children are playing in! OK
7. In what a dirty room the children are playing! no
. He waited for the crosstown bus.
8. For which bus did he wait? OK, but infrequent
9. Which bus did he wait for? OK
She left the conference after the second lecture.
10. Which lecture did she leave the conference after? no
11. After which lecture did she leave the conference? OK
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#3
1. What a curvy road we are driving on! (thumbs up)
2. On what a curvy road we are driving!(yellow exclamation) Kind of like, «Oh what a tangled web we weave»—a little old-fashioned—however, correct
3. On the kitchen table, the man is sitting. (yellow exclamation) Even though correct, and this could be an answer to a question, it sounds like an answer from a foreigner who doesn’t know that normal English sentence structure is subject, then prepositional phrases. (However, «Whose woods these are I think I know….»)
4. The kitchen table, the man is sitting on. (thumbs down) This is not a complete sentence—however, it could be used as an answer to the question, «Which kitchen table do you mean?» (It’s still not a complete sentence.)
5. He’s the one who I bought it from. (blue face, question mark hair) Although it sounds perfectly natural, I’m thinking it should be whom instead of who (I bought it from whom—object of the preposition from)….But then, again, is who an appositive that renames He—which is in the subjective case?—Wow, Suzennne—I feel like I’m back in 7th grade grammar class—I see what you mean!
6. What a dirty room the children are playing in!(thumbs up)
7. In what a dirty room the children are playing! (thumbs up)—Out of #6 and #7, I think they are both fine structurally—however, it is becoming more common to hear the preposition at the end of the sentence in everyday speech. The structure of #7 sounds either a) contrived to follow the «Don’t end a sentence with a preposition!» rule (which you’ve already said that linguists don’t subscribe to) or b) written before 1930.
. He waited for the crosstown bus. (thumbs up)
8. For which bus did he wait? (thumbs up)
9. Which bus did he wait for? (thumbs up)—Again, if linguists are saying the preposition thing is passe, I would tend to agree-just because it’s commonly heard in an evolving language. However, comparing 6&7 with 8&9, #8 sounds less awkward than #7….
She left the conference after the second lecture. (thumbs up)
10. Which lecture did she leave the conference after? (thumbs up)
11. After which lecture did she leave the conference? (thumbs up)
Thank You!
Susan
Yeah, they all start looking okay after a while. The last three have no comments because I feel similar structure was addressed earlier. However, the un-numbered sentence and #11 sound more correct (It’s that preposition thingy that was drilled in us in 7th grade!)
NOTE TO ANY MODERATORS: When trying to comply with the questioner’s request to put in icons, the website would not allow me to do it. «Too many something-or-other, something-or-others in my signature….»
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#4
suzzzenn said:
1. What a curvy road we are driving on! Eccentric but OK
2. On what a curvy road we are driving! No.
3. On the kitchen table, the man is sitting. No.
4. The kitchen table, the man is sitting on. Just possibly, without the comma, as an answer to «Which table do you like best?» (or similar daft question).
5. He’s the one who I bought it from. No. «He’s the one I bought it from.» or «I bought it from him.»
6. What a dirty room the children are playing in! OK
7. In what a dirty room the children are playing! No.
. He waited for the crosstown bus. OK.
8. For which bus did he wait? No.
9. Which bus did he wait for? OK.
She left the conference after the second lecture. OK.
10. Which lecture did she leave the conference after? Questionable, but normal.
11. After which lecture did she leave the conference? OK but a bit pedantic and formal.Thank You!
Susan
Apparently, having edited my comments into your quote, the post is too short. These words are included only to avoid the error message.
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#5
I agree with all said so far apart from number 10. I see MJScott likes it, but not Eddie or Panjandrum. To me it sounds fine.
Pan — I agree with your comments after 11. If you don’t like 10 or 11, how would you express this then?
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#6
If I was talking about the conference I would use 10. If I was writing about it I would use 11. The pedant in me does not like 10. The human in me does not like 11.
How would I express it? Well you see I don’t think I would.
I think I would ask, first: «When did she leave the conference?».
And if I wanted to know which of the lectures she had heard, I would ask «Who did she hear last?» or (a bit unlikely) «Whose lecture did she hear last?» or «Who was speaking when she left?».
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#7
Hey, Pan!
#1 might sound eccentric to you, but it’s perfectly acceptable English in the colonies (the USA).
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#8
Eddie said:
Hi, Suze.
That rule is a vestige of what is known as prescriptive grammar. The last 4 decades have produced a more scientifically oriented grammar known as descriptive grammar.
1. What a curvy road we are driving on! OK…actually, while in speech this is usually acceptable and no one would think you a fool if you spoke this way, it is actually wrong. In writing especially, one should NEVER end a sentence with a preposition. It’s just bad grammar; it leaves the sentence «hanging».
But…this is usually only something to look for when writing an advanced paper, say, for college or something.
When speaking, it would probably be best to use this as opposed to #2, which is technically more correct. If someone spoke like #2, most English speakers would actually think it sounds stupid, and thus wrong.
2. On what a curvy road we are driving! no YES! As I said, this sentence is actually grammatically correct. It may sound strange, but it’s right. One could also say (changing the exclamation) «We are driving on a curvy road.» or «What a curvy road on which we are driving?» But the latter (second) of the two is pretty awkward — correct, but awkward — so I don’t advise using that.
3. On the kitchen table, the man is sitting. no
4. The kitchen table, the man is sitting on. (What’s the man sitting on?)
5. He’s the one who I bought it from. OK again…just like #1…this should be «He’s the one from whom I bought it.»
6. What a dirty room the children are playing in! OK Same here
7. In what a dirty room the children are playing! no YES, same as 2, though again, most English-speakers would look at you funny if you spoke this way.![;)]( "Wink ;)")
. He waited for the crosstown bus.
8. For which bus did he wait? OK, but infrequent
9. Which bus did he wait for? OK again, for the same reason, 8 is right and this is wrong, but this, as Eddie says, is more frequent.
She left the conference after the second lecture.
10. Which lecture did she leave the conference after? no
11. After which lecture did she leave the conference? OK
Advanced grammar is at times awkward. Hope this helps, but like I said, most people will not even catch the mistakes I just pointed out (see…I just used one myself ) So don’t worry about all of this too much unless you plan on writing a college English paper, and then, it may still rely on the choice of the instructor.
Some teachers will understand that «Which bus did he wait for?» is standard spoken English, and won’t really care so much if it’s technically grammatically wrong, but others, especially English ones, will.
Sorry for being so wordy.
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#9
Eddie said:
Hey, Pan!
#1 might sound eccentric to you, but it’s perfectly acceptable English in the colonies (the USA).
Sorry Eddie, I didn’t mean to suggest there was anything at all wrong with the English; only that its not the kind of thing I would say myself unless I wanted to add extra emphasis to how curvy the road was by the eccentricity of the language I used.
Mind you, curvy is not a word I’d use to describe a road — I’d use windy or bendy (that’s windy as in winding round the corners, not windy as in blowing your hair off). Curvy normally refers to ….. oops, better not go there in public forum.
So I’d be more likely to say «Hey, this is a really windy road!» or «This road’s really windy!»
But there is nothing wrong with the original.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#10
JasonNPato said:
Advanced grammar is at times awkward. Hope these helps, but like I said, most people will not even catch the mistakes I just pointed out (see…I just used one myself
) So don’t worry about all of this too much unless you plan on writing a college English paper, and then, it may still rely on the choice of the instructor.
Some teachers will understand that «Which bus did he wait for?» is standard spoken English, and won’t really care so much if it’s technically grammatically wrong, but others, especially English ones, will.Sorry for being so wordy.
Notice that Suzzen (who started this thread) said to ignore the no-preposition-at-the-end-of-a-sentence rule for this sentences — which, by the way, is an extremely debatable and controversial «rule.» I would by no means decry ending a sentence with a preposition as incorrect because
1) it’s debatable
2) it does NOT leave the sentence hanging (the meaning is perfectly clear — the preposition has an object; it’s just earlier in the sentence)
3) sometimes it is the best, smoothest way to express an idea
4) there is simply no logical reason for it. Some of the Germanic languages strictly use the preposition with a relative or interrogative pronoun; others use it exclusively at the end. Compare German Woher kommst du? and Norwegian Hvar kommer du fra? In both languages the meaning is perfectly clear. As a Germanic language, English could follow either of the two styles «From where do you come?» or «Where do you come from?» and the meaning remains clear. It just depends on which one sounds smoother; as a matter of fact, the second one sounds a lot better in this case — which I think you will definitely agree with.
Lastly, your usage of «pointed out» is not incorrect — even according to that rule — because in this case «out» is an adverb and not a preposition. (English grammars for foreigners would call this a «phrasal verb.») Notice that there is no object of a preposition. The elliptical «that» in your sentence is a direct object following the verb «point.»
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#11
I swore I was going to keep away from this thread when I saw it was just becoming a «to have a preposition at the end or not to have a preposition at the end» argument, because no one will ever win.
Anyhow, I can’t help myself. I completely agree with Elroy. I find it amazing that anyone could advise not to use sentence 6, but say sentence 7 is OK.
I believe that this (ridiculous) «no preposition at the end of the phrase» was invented because Latin didn’t do it. Whatever the reason, languages can and do move on and this is certainly the case here. No one, ever, ever would say or write sentence 7, and frankly it seems rather irresponsible to suggest otherwise when foreign speakers are also going to be reading this, after all it is they who are going to receive the blank looks and smirks when they use it (or the red pen marks — I would hope — if they write it).
I think it is fair enough to advise that there may be some people who don’t like it, but this is far from universal. I don’t know if this is a BE-AE difference, but at school I remember my English teacher saying that it was fine to end a sentence with a preposition, and that no marks would ever be lost for doing so. He didn’t comment on whether tortured sentences such as 7 would gain or lose marks.
An argument rages about whether you should or should not end a sentence with a preposition (and I’ve made it abundantly clear where I stand on that issue) but this does not imply that sentences which have been fashioned actively to avoid ending with a preposition are ok. Usually they are convoluted, heavy and, most importantly, not used in normal expression. I notice that Jason said that «people would give you funny looks» if you used 7. Quite right, but how that is compatible with saying it is grammatically correct is beyond me — particularly in conjunction with the advice not to use sentence 6. Are people supposed to completely avoid ever using a sentence with a preposition in it then?
As Churchill said «this is the sort of English up with which I will not put!»
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#12
timpeac said:
I swore I was going to keep away from this thread when I saw it was just becoming a «to have a preposition at the end or not to have a preposition at the end» argument, because no one will ever win.
Anyhow, I can’t help myself. I completely agree with Elroy. I find it amazing that anyone could advise not to use sentence 6, but say sentence 7 is OK.
I believe that this (ridiculous) «no preposition at the end of the phrase» was invented because Latin didn’t do it. Whatever the reason, languages can and do move on and this is certainly the case here. No one, ever, ever would say or write sentence 7, and frankly it seems rather irresponsible to suggest otherwise when foreign speakers are also going to be reading this, after all it is they who are going to receive the blank looks and smirks when they use it (or the red pen marks — I would hope — if they write it).
I think it is fair enough to advise that there may be some people who don’t like it, but this is far from universal. I don’t know if this is a BE-AE difference, but at school I remember my English teacher saying that it was fine to end a sentence with a preposition, and that no marks would ever be lost for doing so. He didn’t comment on whether tortured sentences such as 7 would gain or lose marks.
An argument rages about whether you should or should not end a sentence with a preposition (and I’ve made it abundantly clear where I stand on that issue) but this does not imply that sentences which have been fashioned actively to avoid ending with a preposition are ok. Usually they are convoluted, heavy and, most importantly, not used in normal expression. I notice that Jason said that «people would give you funny looks» if you used 7. Quite right, but how that is compatible with saying it is grammatically correct is beyond me — particularly in conjunction with the advice not to use sentence 6. Are people supposed to completely avoid ever using a sentence with a preposition in it then?
As Churchill said «such pedantry is something up with which I will not put!»
Exactly. I think it’s just a matter of personal style and preference.
By the way, I find Churchill’s quote particularly telling because «up» in this case is actually an adverb, and «with» a preposition, so if one were to completely adhere to this nonsensical rule, one would have to say «Such pedantry is something with which I will not put up.»
Which is exactly the point. If people started worrying about shoving all their prepositions or preposition look-alikes to earlier in the sentence, they’d just start piling up adverbs along with the prepositions, which would result in a complete and inextricable mess. The most natural way to say this sentence would obviously be «Such pedantry is something I will not put up with.»
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#13
elroy said:
Exactly. I think it’s just a matter of personal style and preference.
By the way, I find Churchill’s quote particularly telling because «up» in this case is actually an «adverb,» and «with» a preposition, so if one were to completely adhere to this nonsensical rule, one would have to say «Such pedantry is something with which I will not put up.»
Which is exactly the point. If people started worrying about shoving all their prepositions or preposition look-alikes to earlier in the sentence, they’ll just start piling up adverbs along with the prepositions, which would result in a complete and inextricable mess. The most natural way to say this sentence would obviously be «Such pedantry is something I will not put up with.»
Oh interesting, and a very good point. There is nothing worse than when people start being pedantic, but in doing so creating further errors.
I’ve lost count of the number of times that I have heard «between you and I». People have heard that too many people say «me» when they should say «I» and so insert it into sentences such as this incorrectly («me» being the correct form after a preposition).
By the way I slightly misquoted Churchill, and have since corrected, but the point remains the same.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#14
timpeac said:
Oh interesting, and a very good point. There is nothing worse than when people start being pedantic, but in doing so creating further errors.
I’ve lost count of the number of times that I have heard «between you and I». People have heard that too many people say «me» when they should say «I» and so insert it into sentences such as this incorrectly («me» being the correct form after a preposition).
By the way I slightly misquoted Churchill, and have since corrected, but the point remains the same.
Haha, great point. Why can’t people just leave good enough alone?
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#15
No offense taken, Pan. I was just playing with you. I’m well aware of the fact that every language has its varieties of expression according to the location in which it is spoken. That’s what makes foreign language study so interesting.
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#16
Eddie: Thanks. As a matter of interest, would you use «curvy» in general to describe inanimate things — such as roads? For me, curvy is more or less exclusively feminine and to describe a geographical feature as curvy would be something of an anatomical comparison — and attractive at that.
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#17
Hi Everybody,
Jason, thank you for your attempts at helping. I have no doubt that you are repeating what you were taught! The problem is, the rule itself is incorrect. That’s why I asked people to avoid it.
Here’s a bit of trivia. Just to add to what Tim, Elroy, Eddie, said about the rule, it grew out of something that John Dryden said about Ben Johnson’s writing. In 1616 Ben Johnson wrote this line:
The bodies, that those soules were frighted from;
Dryden didn’t like it and wrote in a critique it should have been:
The bodies, from which those soules were frighted;
The «rule» was picked up and put into grammars in the 18th century and found its way into the hearts of grammar teachers everywhere. (sources: Cambridge Grammar of English, and others) The problem is that no one, even excellent writers, follows that rule all of the time. There are times when it is perfectly fine to end a sentence with a preposition. Sometimes the choice to end a sentence with a preposition or not is purely a style difference. The Cambridge grammar says it is harder to leave a preposition at the end of a sentence that adds extra information than one that is required by the verb.
The Cambridge grammar says that in sentences like #10 it is easier to leave the preposition at the end than sentences like #11. (adjuncts vs. complements) I wasn’t sure if I agreed, but my head is swimming from so many examples of similar sounding sentences, I couldn’t be sure anymore. I appreciated your answers. Any other opinions are welcome.
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#18
I always thought the position of the preposition didn’t mind but indicated formality. I mean if the preposition comes first it’s very formal and even much more correct than putting it at the end what is also correct.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#19
Krams said:
I always thought the position of the preposition didn’t mind but indicated formality. I mean if the preposition comes first it’s very formal and even much more correct than putting it at the end what is also correct.
That’s one way to look at it, yes. Using the preposition towards the beginning does tend to sound more formal.
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#20
suzzzenn: Fascinating bit of history!
Ideas like this would have started as generalisations from accepted style and then been formalised into rules for schools. Like many rules for schools, they are simplified. And just as it it quite legitimate to start a sentence with «And» if you know what you are doing, so it is quite acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition if it would be artificial and tortuous to find something else to end it with. Or:
«If the final preposition that has naturally presented itself sounds comfortable, keep it; if it does not sound comfortable, still keep it if it has compensating vigour, or when among awkward possibilities it is the least awkward.»
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#21
wow…I stirred up quite a discussion. As many of you say, and as I was trying to say in the first place (though I may have failed), just be careful. Some teachers will mark the «end rule» wrong, while others will mark it right, but none, that I know of, would mark it wrong if the sentence does not end with a preposition. All I was trying to say, is that it’s safest, in my experience, never to end a sentence with a preposition, because in that way, you can’t really be grammatically or technically wrong, no matter the so-called «rule.» By avoiding it, you simply never face it.
That said, when I’m correcting papers written by my foreign-language-speaking friends, I never make that correction, because it’s just way too «picky» of a thing to point out to someone who is learning more how to speak and write clearly as opposed to worrying about things that are really a decision of preference from the instructor.
As I said in my original, some instructors won’t care, but others might, and it’s almost impossible to know which is which until you make the mistake in the first place. So, my advice was only to try to avaid «guessing» by writing in such a way that, in my experience, none will ever say is «wrong» (though they might label it «awkward», and rightfully so).
My personal preference, of course, is the more clearly understood way «Where did you come from?»
instead of «From where did you come?»
I wouldn’t talk that way, and so I would not ask any other to talk that way. In America, in fact, the second example would make you sound «high-and-mighty», like you think you’re above everyone else, and many Americans, I think, would feel almost insulted if you walked around all the time thinking about such an arguable rule.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#22
JasonNPato said:
Some teachers will mark the «end rule» wrong, while others will mark it right, but none, that I know of, would mark it wrong if the sentence does not end with a preposition.
I think you meant «would mark it wrong if it did end with a preposition,»….right?
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#23
I always thought the position of the preposition didn’t mind but indicated formality. I mean if the preposition comes first it’s very formal and even much more correct than putting it at the end which is also correct.
Of course, you could go too far—like saying, «First, it’s very formal—and even much more correct than putting it at the end, which is also a correct place to put it at…..
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#24
suzzzenn said:
Here’s a bit of trivia. Just to add to what Tim, Elroy, Eddie, said about the rule, it grew out of something that John Dryden said about Ben Johnson’s writing. In 1616 Ben Johnson wrote this line:
The bodies, that those soules were frighted from;
Dryden didn’t like it and wrote in a critique it should have been:The bodies, from which those soules were frighted;
Let me add that Dryden had a bone to pick with Johnson (who knows why), but he also criticized Shakespeare, among others. He was a pompous idiot, nothing more.
The «rule» was picked up and put into grammars in the 18th century and found its way into the hearts of grammar teachers everywhere. (sources: Cambridge Grammar of English, and others)
I have been speaking about similar topics for months. Complete fools make up rules, with absolutely NO right to do so, then other fools follow them like sheep. Centuries later nonsense is still being taught in English classes. It is impossible to read many books by fine writers without seeing that such rules are wrong. There are countless people in this world who spend a great deal of time talking about how English is written well without spending much time reading well-written English.
The problem is that no one, even excellent writers, follows that rule all of the time. There are times when it is perfectly fine to end a sentence with a preposition.
That’s the point. Pick 50 books by your favorite authors. Check the ends of all the sentences. If you believe that ending a sentence with a preposition is wrong, you must conclude that all your favorites are poor writers.
Gaer
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#25
mjscott: Don’t tease me, I’m still learning and I will for years, I’m sorry to make mistakes like those but please don’t tease me… Or have I misunderstood what did you mean.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#26
Krams said:
mjscott: Don’t tease me, I’m still learning and I will for years, I’m sorry to make mistakes like those but please don’t tease me… Or have I misunderstood what you meant.
I don’t think he/she was teasing you. It’s pretty common in these forums to correct mistakes in people’s posts, just like I did above. (Please don’t think I’m teasing you!)
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#27
There seems to be a suggestion creeping in here that an eccentric-sounding preposition coming first is more formal = better = a sign of a well-educated person. To me, it suggests exactly the opposite. Good communicators will not contort the sentence just to follow a supposed rule. If the preposition at the end bothers them, or if they think it may bother their audience, they will change the sentence.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
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#28
panjandrum said:
There seems to be a suggestion creeping in here that an eccentric-sounding preposition coming first is more formal = better = a sign of a well-educated person. To me, it suggests exactly the opposite. Good communicators will not contort the sentence just to follow a supposed rule. If the preposition at the end bothers them, or if they think it may bother their audience, they will change the sentence.
Well, I think sometimes you can put the preposition first, as an alternative. Let’s not reverse the absurdity of the rule and generalize it for the opposite scenario!
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#29
elroy: totally agree — my irritation is with the eccentric-sounding sentences created by unthinking rule-followers.
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#30
elroy, I’m very pleased to be corrected and I thank you, but mjscott said: «Of course, you could go too far—like saying…». In spanish it might be translated as «Claro, prodrías ir demasiado lejos diciendo: and here comes the correction». Well, that «demasiado lejos» could be interpret as I can’t write things like that. If mjscott didn’t mean that… Ok, I’m sorry I’d misunderstood him/her.
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#31
I just joined this discussion and thus I’ll just throw in my hat.
The way I learned it and the way we grammarians still see it today, the ending of a sentence or clause with a preposition is wrong.
Traditional English tells us that there are ways around it and if we look, simply, to the French we can see how things are supposed to be done — the pages on which the book was written, the store at which I bought the hat — do these not sound much more distinguished in written language?
Let us look to the reason why it is acceptable today to end sentences with prespositions — in a word, laziness. People over the ages have left their prepositions to the end of their clauses and now because this is so widespread it has been accepted by grammarians as informally correct.
I do not see many situations in which grammarians would except the «hanging» preposition, but I advise all of you to use it cautiously and, above all, only in spoken or colloquial language. Using it in written language would definitely harm your professionalism.
I above all see no point in debating this though as English has no Academie Francaise to determine what is right or wrong and instead things are correct based on usage — hence, both you and I can be correct at the same time. But I will advise you that if I were ever marking a paper of yours you’d be docked marks for each and every preposition with which you ended a sentence.
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#32
timpeac said:
I swore I was going to keep away from this thread when I saw it was just becoming a «to have a preposition at the end or not to have a preposition at the end» argument, because no one will ever win.
Anyhow, I can’t help myself. I completely agree with Elroy. I find it amazing that anyone could advise not to use sentence 6, but say sentence 7 is OK.
I believe that this (ridiculous) «no preposition at the end of the phrase» was invented because Latin didn’t do it. Whatever the reason, languages can and do move on and this is certainly the case here. No one, ever, ever would say or write sentence 7, and frankly it seems rather irresponsible to suggest otherwise when foreign speakers are also going to be reading this, after all it is they who are going to receive the blank looks and smirks when they use it (or the red pen marks — I would hope — if they write it).
I think it is fair enough to advise that there may be some people who don’t like it, but this is far from universal. I don’t know if this is a BE-AE difference, but at school I remember my English teacher saying that it was fine to end a sentence with a preposition, and that no marks would ever be lost for doing so. He didn’t comment on whether tortured sentences such as 7 would gain or lose marks.
An argument rages about whether you should or should not end a sentence with a preposition (and I’ve made it abundantly clear where I stand on that issue) but this does not imply that sentences which have been fashioned actively to avoid ending with a preposition are ok. Usually they are convoluted, heavy and, most importantly, not used in normal expression. I notice that Jason said that «people would give you funny looks» if you used 7. Quite right, but how that is compatible with saying it is grammatically correct is beyond me — particularly in conjunction with the advice not to use sentence 6. Are people supposed to completely avoid ever using a sentence with a preposition in it then?
As Churchill said «this is the sort of English up with which I will not put!»
I would not use sentence seven either, but as I’ve mentioned there are ways around preposition ended sentences as well. «What a dirty room! I cannot believe these children are playing in it!»
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#33
I have to agree with Winston Churchill (has there been a greater grammarian in the last 100 years?) that ending a sentence with a preposition is not and never was a rule, but rather a pedantic idea «up with which I will not put.»
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#34
According to this essay, the quote was probably misattributed to Churchill, and whoever came up with it cheated a little.
But I definitely agree that it’s the kind of rule up with which none of us should have to put.
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#35
You’re right, one of the pages I was reading said it was his editor or someone…but then, I can’t be sure — I’ve also read sources quoting Churchill himself as saying it.
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#36
Starcreator said:
But I will advise you that if I were ever marking a paper of yours you’d be docked marks for each and every preposition with which you ended a sentence.
Perhaps this is true.
But I would respond by saying that any written work that includes a bizarre and tortured perversion of common sense perpetrated to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition should be returned, unapproved.
There is always an alternative — if you know you are sending the material to an un-reconstructed pedant.
lsp
Senior Member
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#37
elroy said:
I think you meant «would mark it wrong if it did end with a preposition,»….right?
Elroy, I don’t know why Jason didn’t respond, but I think he had it right the first time. Opinions differ about how to mark sentences that do end in prepositions, but all instructors agree on sentences that do not do so.
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#38
lsp said:
Elroy, I don’t know why Jason didn’t respond, but I think he had it right the first time. Opinions differ about how to mark sentences that do end in prepositions, but all instructors agree on sentences that do not do so.
Do they? Take the sentence «There once was a fire, out which no one could put.» Please tell me that everyone considers this sentence at best odd, if not outright incorrect. There is absolutely nothing wrong with «There once was a fire, which no one could put out.»
I’ve been told, and this seems eminently reasonable, that some prepositions go with verb, not with the noun, and these can end the sentence — they’re basically adverbs more than anything. Or is «I stood up» an incorrect sentence? The rule here could be stated as what goes together should stay together.
lsp
Senior Member
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#39
remosfan said:
Do they? Take the sentence «There once was a fire, out which no one could put.» Please tell me that everyone considers this sentence at best odd, if not outright incorrect. There is absolutely nothing wrong with «There once was a fire, which no one could put out.»
I’ve been told, and this seems eminently reasonable, that some prepositions go with verb, not with the noun, and these can end the sentence — they’re basically adverbs more than anything. Or is «I stood up» an incorrect sentence? The rule here could be stated as what goes together should stay together.
Gee, I hope you’re addressing Jason, since I stuck my nose in to his post to paraphrase his intent for elroy , I personally think students should be encouraged to judge whether ending a sentence with a preposition or its alternative sounds less awkward. The same can be said for the split infinitive, another old non-rule.
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#40
The grammarians’ ship is going down! Someone throw them a life raft. The sun is coming up.
Up is coming the sun. ?
Go ahead. Return my sentence with a nasty grade.
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#41
Unless we all start talking like Yoda, prepositions will continue to end sentences.
Out let the dog!
Don’t run! Up I cannot keep!
lsp
Senior Member
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#42
jacinta said:
Unless we all start talking like Yoda, prepositions will continue to end sentences.
Out let the dog!
Don’t run! Up I cannot keep!
LMAO*, or should that be LOMA??!!
* Acronym for Laughing My Ass Off
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#43
Hi lsp,
I was responding to where you said,
Opinions differ about how to mark sentences that do end in prepositions, but all instructors agree on sentences that do not do so.
just to point out that some sentences that do not end in propositions might be considered wrong as well. It seems that our positions on the rule are pretty similar, though, so it’s all good.
lsp
Senior Member
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#44
remosfan said:
Hi lsp,
I was responding to where you said … It seems that our positions on the rule are pretty similar, though, so it’s all good.
I didn’t say, I rephrased another member’s position with which I do not agree. Hmm. Old habits die hard apparently. Make that, which I do not agree with.
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#45
lsp, I finally understand and sorry for the mix-up.
lsp
Senior Member
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#46
remosfan said:
lsp, I finally understand and sorry for the mix-up.
No problem. That’s what I get for butting in (in butting?!?)
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#47
Starcreator said:
I just joined this discussion and thus I’ll just throw in my hat.
The way I learned it and the way we grammarians still see it today, the ending of a sentence or clause with a preposition is wrong.
May I ask
to whom
you are referring when you use the word «we»?
Do you know who John Dryden was? His position was the same as yours, many centuries ago, when he stated that ending a sentence with a preposition was wrong. He was attacking, among others, Shakespeare:
Thou hast no speculation in those eyes
Which thou dost glare with (Macbeth 1606)
Other writers (just a few) who would get a poor grade from you:
Lewis Carrol
Robert Frost
James Thurber
Jonathon Swift
Jane Austen
Samuel Johnson
(This is only a very small part of a VERY long list of famous writers.)
Let us look to the reason why it is acceptable today to end sentences with prespositions — in a word, laziness.
Some of the greatest writers the world has known considered it acceptable long before «today».
Gaer
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#48
jacinta said:
Unless we all start talking like Yoda, prepositions will continue to end sentences.
Out let the dog!
Don’t run! Up I cannot keep!
Thank you for up-bringing that.
Gaer
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#49
Has anybody else noticed that many of these examples that people have given are ones where the sentence ends with a phrasal verb, i.e. verb+preposition? ‘remosfan’ almost stated as much in his/her post.
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#50
garryknight said:
Has anybody else noticed that many of these examples that people have given are ones where the sentence ends with a phrasal verb, i.e. verb+preposition? ‘remosfan’ almost stated as much in his/her post.
Thanks, that was basically what I was trying to get at, but I could not think of the word.
And watch out, or you’ll start a debate about his vs. his/her vs. they.
I’m a he btw.
What’s the difference between the following example sentences?
- At the end of the day we went home. In the end, it was a long day.
- At the end of the game, our team won. In the end, our team won.
- We were happy in the end. We weren’t happy at the end of the movie.
- The heroes won in the end. The heroes celebrated at the end of their journey.
If the uses of these phrases aren’t clear yet, keep reading – they’ll make perfect sense in the end, as it’s explained at the end of this introduction. You’ll also find some handy tips for mastering the difference between at and in in general.
What’s the difference between ‘at the end’ and ‘in the end’?
Simply put, at the end refers to a specific time or location, whilst in the end is an idiomatic phrase that means in conclusion or in summary. However, the difference between at the end and in the end shows one of the main differences between use of the prepositions at and in.
Consider these examples:
- We ate at the dinner table. but We ate in the dining room.
At in all these examples refers to a specific time or location; in refers to being inside a general area. At the end is used to point to the end as a specific point in time, whilst in the end is used, more idiomatically, to talk about a general “end” zone: the summary or conclusion.
This could be demonstrated in a diagram. If we were talking about a film:
At the end of the day, in the end…
At the end of the day and In the end, can both be used idiomatically to mean ‘in conclusion’. But At the end, and In the end of the day, are both incorrect – because the rules that make them different (above), also tell you how to form the idioms:
- At the end of the day, I was tired.
- In the end, I was tired.
These sentences could be taken literally (meaning exactly what it says) or figuratively (using the general idiomatic meaning). If you are unsure about how to apply the prepositions, even in idioms, thinking about the grammatical use of the words can help you decide. If you have any questions, please ask in the comments, and if you found this useful, please share it!
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